No crosses at school
On the third of November 2009 the European Tribunal of Human Rights in Strasburg enacted that religious symbol, like the cross, can no longer be hung in the classrooms. This verdict caused a great agitation in such conservative and catholic countries as Poland, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. As indicated by European Tribunal of Human Rights, “hanging crosses in a classroom breaches parents’ rights to bring up their children according to their views and hinders the religious freedom of the students themselves.” The decision of the tribunal was a response to charges of Soile Lautsi Albertin, Finnish mother living in Italy, who had been fighting since 2002 for removal of the crosses from the school her children attend.
Not long after the ruling another incident took place. In one of the Polish best secondary schools a group of students submitted a letter to the principal in which they required the removal of religious symbols from the classrooms. They wrote: “We see the placing of religious symbols in public institutions as a sign of favoring a specific philosophy of life by the school.” After many heated discussions, the principal finally declined the petition. He said: “The ordinance of the Minister of Education from 1992 concerning teaching religion at school still obliges us. According to this, crosses can hang in classrooms.”
Nowadays we face more and more often the problem of religious symbols at the public places. The discussions about crosses in Europe are not cooling down; in the meantime atheists in the United States are demanding the suppression on prayer during the official state-ceremonies. Their arguments are often hilarious: “When all those religious statements and prayers on the inauguration moment started, I felt isolated for a while.”
End of January in Europe, the French parliamentary commission showed the final rapport on burkqa case. Deputies insisted to adapt the resolution which would be followed with a permanent suppression on wearing burqas at the public places, such as in schools, hospitals, offices, public transport, etc.
In our society we generate ridiculous situations in which the court will be deciding about the convenient place for the cross, where and when can be prayed, how we should dress or what we have to believe in! I started to contemplate, in which way, for a person that does not believe, a piece of wood hanging on a wall can be disturbing? How someone’s religious activity which is not mandatory for everyone can be disturbing? It seems to be a play, where the people are the marionettes of the authorities. Isn’t it all only for publicity? Shouldn’t the people respect the rights of the others by coming to terms with their religions and cultures? I think that human being is too egoistic to understand completely the point of view of the other.
The Class of 2010
The issue of religion is always a sensitive one and never easily solved. It’s not just a recent thing however, there have been religious clashes in society since the idea of religion began (just think of the Egyptians and their persecution of the Jews, long before Christ was even born!). The thing with religion is, in this day and age, it really is a personal choice and I think it is something that should really be left alone by the authorities.
In Canada we had a really famous case in the 70s when the late Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau declared that the state had “no business in the bedrooms of the people”. In this case he was speaking of gay rights and the fact that the State couldn’t regulate the personal choices of people on the subject of sexuality but the same idea applies to the issue mentioned above. Religion is a private choice and therefore the State really has no right to tell these schools what they can or can not display on their walls. Next thing you know they’re going to be passing a law that States that only one language can be present in any and all the decorations in a classroom (whatever language is more dominent) simply because some students might only be comfortable reading posters with their own language on it. And there goes the entire idea of multiculturalism…out the window.
The world is a diverse place with many different people with their many different ideologies. I honestly believe in freedom of expression and the freedom to believe what one wishes to believe. The cross isn’t hurting anyone, these parents just need to get over themselves.
I remember a cross hanging in the classroom when I was ten years old. It was a big wooden cross, with a peace of palm behind. Every morning before class we had to pray for five minutes. I liked the quiet moment, because it was the only moment during the day we could lay our head on the table.
But I also remember that there was a girl in my class, and her mother told her she couldn,t attend the little moment. So the teacher always made her wait outside.
At that time I didn’t realise what was going on. They were excluding a little girl because of the beliefs of her mother.
When my mother heard about this, she got really mad and told me that from tommorrow, I should join the girl outside. So she wouldn,t be alone.
I was raised surrounded by catholicism, so for me schools, public buildings,… can hang as many crosses as they like.
But I believe that some people (often minorities) feel excluded and alone because of this.
I think people should ask theirselves the question : what is the most important? That we can express our believes by hanging a little cross, and trough this way show that we are the majority, or not even taking the risk that someone could feel excluded.
But what if that person (who is feeling excluded) is wearing a headscarf? if we reason with logic, that would mean they should have to take it off. No cross in the classroom, is no headscarf.
I believe that some civilizations are more attached to their beliefs than others.
If I look at Belgium, my own country, I couldn’t believe that a lot of catholic people of my age would feel hurt if they would remove a cross. But I know a lot of muslim girls who would feel like they lost their identity if they would take away their headscarf.
So maybe this whole conflict is based on stubbornness. If you do this, we do that. But maybe this and that doesn’t have the same value.
I think that the most important thing to do is to learn to put everything into perspective. And look at the situation from a distance. Than maybe we will see that we are all people with different needs and goals.
The discussion about crosses hanging in classrooms was also held in Austria. Many christians were complaining about the dicision from Strasbourg. Especially the right-leaning political party started a huge campaign against this law.
I think it is more a way from the political parties to get more public attention by starting discussions about religion and national identity. Also the public opinion poll in Switzerland about the minaret ban startet a lot of discussions in Europe. Different parties get so the opportunity to express their opinion and appeal to protect the national identity.
But of course we have to be aware of that more and more people from different beliefs and cultures are in the same school. The important thing is that we can believe in what we want and respect the other people and their belief. So it can be stupid to remove the crosses from school but it could also help to feel people with other beliefs more integrated.
I can’t remember this was a big issue in the Netherland (well, probably at some school it was, but at least it didn’t reach me. But is does remind me of an other interesting story of the same kind, about a bussdriver in Amsterdam who was actually sacked because he wore a neckless with a cross on it, and he refused to take it off while he was on shift. It caused quite some controversy. The man actually got his job back, but is not allowed to wear the neckless anymore.
This issue is so difficult and complex that scares me a little bit. Anyway, I think that religion should be separate from the states institutions. These means that states shouldn´t help one religion more than the others and. Following this idea I think that no cross should be hanging in the classrooms. At least, not in the public educational system schools. Nevertheless, if we continue searching on this conflict we are going to deal with important problems. First, we start forbidden religious symbols from school but what would it the next step? In France they are trying to make disappear burkas from the streets. How should be managed secular state and religious ideas? When private life starts and when it ends?
Talking about personal experience I remember when I was child that we had crosses in some of the classrooms. But apart from that detail we didn´t use to pray or anything directly related with catholic relijion. We didn´t like that cross however, we had lot of fun hiding it!
So we should respect the religious feelings of the others, but what if they don’t respect ours? Let’s turn the story this way, if there was only one believer and the rest atheists, should the one get the right to hang a cross or wearing a headscarf, just because not doing that would be in conflict with his feelings about it? In my opinion, the majority of the environment has the right to decide what is aloud and what isn’t. I think it’s not a business of government of other authorities. Let’s just take a look at the some Arabic countries like Iran or South Arabia. We are not aloud to dress there the way we would like to, we need to adapt us to the roles they enforce. We all probably remember the young couple which was got on having sex without a wedlock. It is natural in our culture and contradictory in those countries. We have to accept it while we are there. I would say, because of todays’ globalism and huge migration possibilities it’s not possible to keep every cultures at their own place. I agree, all people have the right to do and believe what they want. But why can’t they accept the culture they are coming to? For me it’s just a nonsense to fight against something you don’t know. If I was in Iran,for example, living there and studying, i would not expect the Iranian girls to take their burqas out because it is not accordant to my believes…
I think crosses shouldn’t be banned, anywhere. Because religious symbols are necessary for religions to get adapted to each-other in my opinion. How can you get used to (and coexist with)muslims when you’ve never seen a burkqa, or to christians without knowing what a cross looks like. It might be offending for a non-christian to see a cross hanging in a classroom, but you should respect the origin of the school, you should be able to tolerate the beliefs that were initially present at the benches after wich you’re studying.
In Belgium there even is a burkqa ban in some schools in Antwerp, one of the most multicultural parts of the land. It really is a ridiculous (and I find fearing) thing to do, because which religious symbol will be next? I thought it wouldn’t be possible in our modern Europe, but we’re actually banning religion because it isn’t ours, it’s ‘offensive’. We’re not showing tollerance, having a holy war through legislation with Islam. Where will it end…
When I was pupil I never saw crosses at school, and that is why I can´t understand why are we discussing about that. For me is not normal to speak about religion at school. We live in a diverse world and all religions have to be respected, even the atheistic people. As Iñaki said, no cross should be hanging in public schools. Who says that muslim pupils have to study all the day in front of christian crosses? Or, if I am atheistic, why have to pray every morning?
I think that public education system has to respect all the students. Religion is personal and I don´t think that it has to be a subject. If somebody want to bring up their children in a religious way, they can go to private schools. I agree with some of you when you say that religion isn´t an institucional matter.
I don´t want to convince anyone because it is impossible. We have to realice that we can think what we want, but without forcing the others to feel the same.
Raised in Holland, going to a public school I haven’t been in such situation. In our classes were no crosses hanging just because we are a public school and we want everybody to feel the same. Because there weren’t no signs of religion in the school. Everybody ( christian or islamic) felt equal. A good thing, because that’s just what we are. Hanging crosses in public classroom is a no go. It isn’t a church. It’s a public classroom.
Religion is well and truly nothing more than a bucket full of turtleturd marinated in malodorants. It fills people with false hopes and delusions and gives inanimate objects more meaning than they deserve. Instead of sitting pretty on a wall, a cross would be much better served up as a necklace holder or back scratcher or perhaps even as a torch if the electricity goes out.
I’m a firm believer in freedom. I don’t believe we really have much at the moment as you have to be careful with what you say (don’t be going around saying ‘nigger’, well at least not if you’re white that is), what you do (nuns have gotten arrested for protesting peacefully) and even what you don’t do (hindsight can be a bastard especially when the media’s involved) and this is why this topic is so damn complicated.
Should public schools be free of all religious aspects because it conflicts with the diverse beliefs of its students? The same question applies to private schools? Should private religious schools even be permitted? One doesn’t expect a child to vote in the upcoming presidential election as the child is not aware enough of the issues involved and yet society expects the same damn child to make a decision regarding religion. Insane to the membrane! But of course, we all know it’s not the child who makes such a decision. Should schools have the freedom to do whatever the hell they want? And it’s not just schools, is it? But all public places, frankly.
Anyway, religion sucks more than a black hole in a vacuum cleaner. My personal stance is that in a progressive society a cross shouldn’t be displayed on a wall in a school. Instead of focusing on one type of religious belief schools, whose main duty is to educate after all, should be teaching their students about all other religious beliefs too. Maybe, just maybe, despite all the other cowpooh propaganda the kids will no doubt receive from their parents and other quarters, they just might be better equipped to make informed decisions about their personal beliefs which in turn will lead to a much healthier society.
Peace be upon me.
As Jenny already stated, the discussion about banning catholic crosses from schools or not, are in Austria very common since the decision of Strasbourg. They are ridiculous, because the right wing partys are of course for crosses in classrooms and left wing partys are for ‘banning’ them. I don’t think that putting them away would constitute that people have to give up their culture.
I’m catholic and for me the cross is not that important, because my faith is in my heart and I don’t need symbols to live out my faith.. Crosses at home, maybe yes, in the curch yes, but not in public space. I think, that crosses aren’t important in schools or public spaces, because today many different people with different culture background are living together.
Respect other cultures, people, religions is the most important factor. People should finally focus on the ‘real’ problems in our world …
I was doing some more of that thinking lark and those two now seemingly universally known sentences kept playing in my head “Put your left hand on the bible and raise your right hand repeat after me. Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?”
Ok, it’s not a school and it’s not a cross but it’s about as different as a fart is from a burp and so the same questions could be applied. Should the legal system still be using a bible in its courtrooms? It’s my understanding that the practice is really just a customary act but is it not about time we do away with this pointless practice? Or is it not pointless? Maybe those astute judges feel they have a better chance of arriving at the truth if they pump some good ol’ godly fear into their witnesses and those standing trial.
I was raised a Catholic and for since i can remember there were always crosses and Bibles and everything. In Holland you can go to a religious school or to a public school and my parents sent me to a religious school. So we always prayed and read stories from the bible. I honestly can not remember if there were any crosses at the classrooms, but we were obligated to go to church during christmas and eastern. I never saw this as a problem and I seriously don’t know why people would find it offending that there’s a cross in a classroom.
Ofcourse you can be a non-believer or an atheist. But why bother about a cross on the wall if you don’t believe in it? Whats the point?
I’m sure this is about the way you were raised, what your parents told you and it’s okay. I’m not religous anymore, although my father says i’m a catholic till i die
, but i still don’t find it offending. I respect all religions. Whether you are a Jew with curls in your hair, a Muslima with a headscarf or a Christian with a rosery. For me it’s just something that can or can not be there and honestly I don’t think i would notice it at all!
Alrighty, here’s the deal, Erin, I have to 100 percent disagree with you on this issue (still love you though), and Nora, I agree with you whole-heartedly.
I come from a place that was NEVER accepting of my religion. Teachers would hang crosses and Christian symbols all over the place in our state funded schools without regard to the fact that not everyone believes the same way they do. I am aware that I am in a gross minority in my state when it comes to religion, but that should not devalue my need to feel comfortable in the place I learn.
Yes, a cross may seem like a small thing, but the fact of the matter is that it is a breach of church and state. By displaying a Christian symbol in the front of the class it automatically give more credence to that way of believing instead of others, and simply put, that is wrong. However, there is nothing wrong with learning about other religions and multiculturalism in class, but having an obvious preference to one religion vs. another is unnecessary.
From what I understand, this is not a ban on religious paraphernalia worn by students or teachers (i.e. a Muslim headscarf or Jewish kipah), but simply a ban on organized religion in the public classroom. I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, I’m surprised this hasn’t been done sooner.
By the way, is there separation of church and state here?
Religion is a very sensitive issue. Religion at school is more sensitive… In addition, I believe that people can never be objective when the subject is belief because all of us believe in something. Some of us belong to a monotheistic religion, some believe in disbelief, some of us worship to freedom.
In my opinion, here, the subject is that can a public school “impose” something? The concerns of parents and preferences of politicians are understandable but 21st century is a good time to take a step forward. It is obvious that we are in the information-age. Thus, brainwashing is not a good way to educate our children. We should not draw a path for them anymore but we should give them a torch to enlighten their way and the school should teach them how to use this torch.
In Turkey, in every class, there are a Portrait of Atatürk, The Turkish National Anthem and Atatürk’s famous discourse for Turkish Youth. Also, primary students have to take oath every morning and sing the anthem every Monday and Friday! I love Atatürk consciously and these implementations can be good to supply loyalty to the nation. However, the world is changing and these practices will not help our children to be a good citizen or believer anymore. We should provide them to know everything and try to give them a good discretion. They should decide what is best for them on their own gradually.
Thus, there should be crosses at school walls but also there should be good articles about atheism. There should be Atatürk pictures on the walls but also there should be a picture of Alfred Nobel or Martin Luther King. The students should read stories from Bible but also from Nietzsche. There should be national posters or flags on the walls of school but they should see all countries flags and be acquainted with all of them. The “public” school should teach all of them and display all visual things about a religion or nation but the student should be able to decide which of them will be on his/her own wall in his/her own room.
You’ve opened a whole new can of Heinze beans there, Guliz. Are you saying that patriotism is a good thing? I’d say it’s because of patriotism and religion that we live in world that is, like, soooo totally bananas (always wondered why bananas got a bad rep).
Nope. I did not mean patriotism or religion is a good thing or is bad. I did not find meaningful to think about is this kind of a world a result of patriotism/religion or is it a reason of them?
I just mean that these kind of implementations (hanging crosses, leader’s pictures, etc.) will/should not feed religion or patriotism anymore. I do not say we should find another way to be able to feed them. I offer to open all the channels that reach information to be able to give you a world that is not like any fruit!
Meaning no disrespect here but I just had a thought,
I read an article on this same verdict by the European Tribunal and they specifically state that no crosses should be present in public spaces…at all
Well this might seem extreme but doesn’t that include churches as well? The building is church property but the cross at the top of the spire is in the public eye.
What about public graveyards? Should gravestones in these places not have crosses on them, or words from the Koran, or Hebrew passages because it might offend someone mourning a loved on at the adjacent grave?
It’s a slippery slope, these sort of rulings open the way for rulings on even more obscure subjects.
I’m not saying religion should be forced on anyone, I’m just saying maybe religious symbols can be present but not acknowledged?
I also couldn’t find anywhere whether Soile Lautsi’s children were ever forced to pray.. or if the cross was just in fact part of the classroom’s wall decorations..?
When you decide to go to a religious school, I think it’s the most normal thing in the world you accept religious symbols hanging the classes. But in a public school, I think there shouldn’t be any religious symbols.
In Belgium you have both, public schools and religious schools. Actually there are no huge differences between both kind of schools. Public schools are a little bit cheaper, but in both kind of schools, the same subjects are teached. Because the government decides what should be teached, and that’s the same for all schools.
So actually, there is no real difference, a lot of people who don’t believe, or have another belief, even prefer the religious (actually catholic) schools, because they are better they say. But still they think the religious symbols should be taken away. I think that’s really ridiculous. If you have the choice between a religious and public, non-religious school, and you don’t want crosses in class, than go to the public schools.
That’s why I think this law is stupid if, as in Belgium, you can choose between religious and non-religious schools.
I agree with Douglas: “Religion sucks more than a black hole in a vacuum cleaner”.
And with Nora: “Hanging crosses in public classroom is a no go. It isn’t a church. It’s a public classroom”.
Even though the cross can be a small object, it bears powerful meaning. Most symbols do. Like the Yin-yang, Svastika, Peace Symbol, USSR-hammer, Red Cross or Crescent Moon.
Symbols – and the ideology behind them – conquer authority over a given domain. Thus, crosses should not be hung in classrooms. Period.